I also feel like the onus of problem-solving communication still falls on the women (in cis hetero marriages) and it becomes just another task on the list, more mental load. Because of the socialization of both women and men in patriarchal systems and specifically marriage, women already do so much more emotional labour and making “communication the key to saving your marriage” feels like a way of dumping blame of women if it doesn’t work out.
Yes! Now that I think about it I've never heard a man say that they initiated the Fair Play discussion because they recognized there was a disproportionate mental load….
This rings so true to my experience. We always agreed on the big stuff like politics, religion and money. Never fought about that at all. Our communication was okay. Not great but okay. Where things broke down was around the division of labor once we had kids, especially after the second kid. I think Fair Play was the beginning of the end for me too. I read it and didn’t even mention it to him because I knew he wouldn’t get it and that he wouldn’t be willing to make those kinds of changes. Ultimately we are polar opposites in terms of our values and expectations around parenting and the roles of moms and dads. He wants to be strict and authoritarian and spend 20 hours a week playing tennis on top of both of us working full time. That did not work for me. At all.
Other than the tennis part, I can so empathize with this! Although the big things we agreed on before vs. now aren’t even the same, which was one of the bigger surprises.
We did have the Fair Play discussion and in contrast to many other couples found that we actually did have a fairly “fair” division of labor; my husband is the primary meal planner, he is the primary one who grocery shops, and he cooks the majority of weekday meals, so that automatically gave him multiple cards that many of the wives I know hold. I have the majority of the childcare tasks, but he is capable of doing all these things for our 5 year old daughter without any instructions from me if I go hang out with friends or want to go on a girls’ night or weekend trip.
For us the Fair Play system was an attempt to make it clearer how we were dividing cleaning tasks, and it simply didn’t work long term because as with every other system it required a lot of time investment into having weekly meetings, and since the way we were dividing things up did feel overall fair, it seemed easier to just keep doing what we were doing and for me to just let go of some of the things that didn’t feel as important (we are not good at deep cleaning regularly; we are more of the tidy up throughout the week types and will dust/use robot vacuums but don’t really want to be out here cleaning baseboards or whatever).
The onus of problem solving does feel like it’s on me though because as someone who has a Master’s in School counseling I learned a lot of skills in communication that he just does not have. He has been in individual therapy as have I, but neither of us is currently in therapy, so I sometimes wonder if we prioritized that as a more regular thing (instead of both of us having done it separately as a more short term endeavor) if that would help us identify how we could improve our communication.
It sounds like having a good basis for the division of labor has been helpful, although it's interesting that you note that you take on the communication pieces because you have a Master's degree when conversations around household labor shouldn't require one!
I've found that the responsibility for keeping the discussions going tends to land on the women in the relationship, which is similar to having to "make a list" and therefore defeats the purpose. As for therapy, I'm for it, generally, so you're probably right in that it could help identify better communication skills!
I’m divorced and I think I was lucky in that my husband actually said he didn’t want to or think he should change. There was a lot of gaslighting me into thinking I was the one who needed to change but once I realized this wasn’t changing and it was too toxic to tolerate, it was easy to leave because of that. It still took 7 years to realize, but it could have been longer.?
I have a partner now who feels like a fairytale. In many ways our gender roles are reversed from societal expectations. I’m AFAB nonbinary and we’re both queer so we’re used to not aligning with cisheteropatriarchal expectations. He’s the household manager, takes care of kids and remembers every little preference and need. His mental load is huge. He also runs his own side business because he couldn’t take care of himself, kids and our other family members without that flexibility. As a disabled family, I’m blown away by how much he does every day to support all of us. I work an 8 hour a day job to provide 98% of our income. I manage finances and need to rest most evenings because of my disabilities so I can work the next day.
My partner is sensitive to others’ pain and readily able to adapt. In 5.5 years, we’ve had half a dozen conversations about something that one of us needed to change in our behavior. I have definitely had to change something to respect my partner. Nothing becomes an argument and he’s extremely adaptable.
I had two longterm relationships prior to this. One that was abusive and one that was just extracting labor from me. This relationship adds immense value to my life. He’s safe, fun, supportive, and puts an equal amount of effort into our growth and wellbeing as a couple and into me as a person as I do for him. I know it’s possible to find this but I also think it’s quite rare and men need to change that.
I also feel like the onus of problem-solving communication still falls on the women (in cis hetero marriages) and it becomes just another task on the list, more mental load. Because of the socialization of both women and men in patriarchal systems and specifically marriage, women already do so much more emotional labour and making “communication the key to saving your marriage” feels like a way of dumping blame of women if it doesn’t work out.
Yes! Now that I think about it I've never heard a man say that they initiated the Fair Play discussion because they recognized there was a disproportionate mental load….
This rings so true to my experience. We always agreed on the big stuff like politics, religion and money. Never fought about that at all. Our communication was okay. Not great but okay. Where things broke down was around the division of labor once we had kids, especially after the second kid. I think Fair Play was the beginning of the end for me too. I read it and didn’t even mention it to him because I knew he wouldn’t get it and that he wouldn’t be willing to make those kinds of changes. Ultimately we are polar opposites in terms of our values and expectations around parenting and the roles of moms and dads. He wants to be strict and authoritarian and spend 20 hours a week playing tennis on top of both of us working full time. That did not work for me. At all.
Other than the tennis part, I can so empathize with this! Although the big things we agreed on before vs. now aren’t even the same, which was one of the bigger surprises.
We did have the Fair Play discussion and in contrast to many other couples found that we actually did have a fairly “fair” division of labor; my husband is the primary meal planner, he is the primary one who grocery shops, and he cooks the majority of weekday meals, so that automatically gave him multiple cards that many of the wives I know hold. I have the majority of the childcare tasks, but he is capable of doing all these things for our 5 year old daughter without any instructions from me if I go hang out with friends or want to go on a girls’ night or weekend trip.
For us the Fair Play system was an attempt to make it clearer how we were dividing cleaning tasks, and it simply didn’t work long term because as with every other system it required a lot of time investment into having weekly meetings, and since the way we were dividing things up did feel overall fair, it seemed easier to just keep doing what we were doing and for me to just let go of some of the things that didn’t feel as important (we are not good at deep cleaning regularly; we are more of the tidy up throughout the week types and will dust/use robot vacuums but don’t really want to be out here cleaning baseboards or whatever).
The onus of problem solving does feel like it’s on me though because as someone who has a Master’s in School counseling I learned a lot of skills in communication that he just does not have. He has been in individual therapy as have I, but neither of us is currently in therapy, so I sometimes wonder if we prioritized that as a more regular thing (instead of both of us having done it separately as a more short term endeavor) if that would help us identify how we could improve our communication.
It sounds like having a good basis for the division of labor has been helpful, although it's interesting that you note that you take on the communication pieces because you have a Master's degree when conversations around household labor shouldn't require one!
I've found that the responsibility for keeping the discussions going tends to land on the women in the relationship, which is similar to having to "make a list" and therefore defeats the purpose. As for therapy, I'm for it, generally, so you're probably right in that it could help identify better communication skills!
I’m divorced and I think I was lucky in that my husband actually said he didn’t want to or think he should change. There was a lot of gaslighting me into thinking I was the one who needed to change but once I realized this wasn’t changing and it was too toxic to tolerate, it was easy to leave because of that. It still took 7 years to realize, but it could have been longer.?
I have a partner now who feels like a fairytale. In many ways our gender roles are reversed from societal expectations. I’m AFAB nonbinary and we’re both queer so we’re used to not aligning with cisheteropatriarchal expectations. He’s the household manager, takes care of kids and remembers every little preference and need. His mental load is huge. He also runs his own side business because he couldn’t take care of himself, kids and our other family members without that flexibility. As a disabled family, I’m blown away by how much he does every day to support all of us. I work an 8 hour a day job to provide 98% of our income. I manage finances and need to rest most evenings because of my disabilities so I can work the next day.
My partner is sensitive to others’ pain and readily able to adapt. In 5.5 years, we’ve had half a dozen conversations about something that one of us needed to change in our behavior. I have definitely had to change something to respect my partner. Nothing becomes an argument and he’s extremely adaptable.
I had two longterm relationships prior to this. One that was abusive and one that was just extracting labor from me. This relationship adds immense value to my life. He’s safe, fun, supportive, and puts an equal amount of effort into our growth and wellbeing as a couple and into me as a person as I do for him. I know it’s possible to find this but I also think it’s quite rare and men need to change that.